A converter that might have a stall speed of 5,000 rpm for a pure drag car would be completely miserable on the street. That includes the advanced manufacturing technology being used in optimizing torque converters. If it does go let us know. (If you need to review or change these settings after you accept, you can do so from the Privacy Tools page.) These a11y cookies normally expire after about seven days, but are removed immediately if you restore the applicable settings to their default values. Twice last week, when I came up to a stop light, the engine bogged down to 400rpm then recovered back to normal idle. How ever this did happen right after I did the six 0 to 60 mph relearn runs. If the fluid becomes contaminated, anything that uses and relies on the fluid can be damaged. A reverse band surrounds a brake drum connected to the front carrier, which is also integral with the rear annulus (orange). This sounds really great, and it is. These torque converters allow some slippage but it should not vary much from the desired PCM value. Turbine speed tends to fall behind impeller speed any time load increases (for example, when going up a steep grade) and an increase in engine speed doesnt immediately produce a corresponding increase in turbine speed. It took the addition of a small device called the stator to increase the efficiency of the fluid coupling and transform it into a torque converter. As the new owner of a 92 Alante with the viscous clutch I wondered what the difference was. Your first course of action, if you notice yourtransmission or torque converter has started to slip or shudder is checking your fluid level. Contact Us - Its weird its not noticable as even a new soft engaging lock up but it acts somewhat like it has one. There are many different types oftorque converter problems. abs, do you have any recommendations on how to troubleshoot a failing torque converter using ForScan? The Vimeo Cookie Policy does not currently disclose the normal durations of the cookies and similar technologies the Vimeo platform uses, but it appears that some may remain in your browser (or other user agent) for as long as your settings permit. What to Do to Fix Slipping or Shuddering. Archive - But the most common torque converter problems are listed below. The torque converter, with its multiple elements, is being manufactured with an eye towards the future. The problems come in many sizes, shapes, and forms. Wallace Racing BACK to Auto Math. Your car's automatic transmission has a torque converter. To resolve the issue, I have reduce the desired slip to 10 rpm in 3-6th gear and increased the + side of the apply ramp table by about 10% across the board and up to 30% in the slip rpm of 2-12. 51.91.16.67 I was monitoring some Torque converter params for my 4R55E with my in dash scantool. I had just bought an SCT with Gearhead tunes. It may not display this or other websites correctly. This is how the first fluid couplings were designed, but they were hideously inefficient because of high slippage. Tuning. by Silver Flex SEL. First, that slip wastes some fuel youre paying for more engine revolutions (and more power) than reach the driveshaft. All other trademarks and/or service marks are the property of their respective owners. This slippage is part of what determines the stall speed of the converter. Second, consider draining and filling the transmission a few times since you can't get all the fluid out with just one drain/fill cycle. It stayed there(18.24) from 60mph to 90 when I let off of it. Privacy Policy. Your ring and pinion (gear size) Your circumference or roll out of the rear tires. A spring-loaded plunger valve controlled oil flow to the lockup clutchs hydraulic cylinder. Torque converter slip question I was monitoring some Torque converter params for my 4R55E with my in dash scantool. Datalogging converter lockup question | SVTPerformance.com Ive been troubleshooting a low RPM with light acceleration shudder on my 2011 EcoBoost Flex. .. makes you appreciate the thought and consideration that goes into EFILive if only we could clone the boys (and girls) of EFILive, imagine a Delphi Ross and Bosch Ross, By WS600 in forum General (Petrol, Gas, Ethanol), By Bradazz in forum 4speed RWD/FWD Transmission Tuning (incl T42), By joecar in forum 4speed RWD/FWD Transmission Tuning (incl T42), 6 speed/8 speed RWD/FWD Transmission Tuning (incl T43, T76, T87), http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.012-T43-Tables, If this is your first visit, be sure to Many aftermarket companies offer performance lockup torque converters that can provide a higher stall speed without sacrificing the advantages of the lockup converter for highway use. Unsurprisingly, each engagement or disengagement of the lockup clutch felt like a shift, giving less technically knowledgeable drivers the mistaken impression that Ultramatic was a two-speed automatic. Terms of Service - Cloudflare Ray ID: 7c0ed4b42f522a79 This overran the rear unit planet carrier, unlocking the rear sun gears one-way clutch and putting the transmission in direct drive. Theglobal torque converter marketcontinues to grow and expand at a CAGR of 4.54%, which is projected until 2021. If your car transmission keeps overheating, you may also notice your transmission starts to act funny, or it may even go into fail date and stay in one gear and not shift at all. What to Do to Fix Your Contaminated Transmission Fluid. A 5 percent slippage factor means that if the impeller is spinning 3,000 rpm, the turbine is only spinning 2,850, or 5 percent slower. Come join the discussion about diesel performance, modifications, EGR deletes, troubleshooting, lift kits, tires, wheels, maintenance, and more! Change Background Color (Note: This option sets cookies on your device to manage your color settings; see the Cookie Notice for details.). Diagnosing a potential Torque Converter problem with a Scan tool The wahFontColor and wahBgColor cookies, which are set if you alter the site's color scheme, normally expire after about 14 days, but you can remove them immediately by clicking the "Restore Defaults" button on the sidebar. Well, I thought I did explain that in my reply post. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Although torque converters are ideal launch devices for. Your email address will not be published. That's because torque converters transfer the power your car engine makes to the transmission in your car. (author diagram). Privacy Statement - Hydraulic slippage also offers some advantages during acceleration: As with a plate clutch, a certain amount of slip makes for a much smoother takeoff. Think of it as two fans facing eachother inside an enclosure. Input output shaft readings are almost exactly the same when driving. One or more wp-saving-post cookies may be set while creating and/or editing posts or pages, to help manage version control and the autosave feature; these cookies normally expire after about 24 hours. One way to minimize coupling slip is to supplement the fluid clutch with a plate clutch that engages when the vehicle reaches cruising speed. i take it your a writer and not a trans guy ,but maybe someone could answer the question. Performance & security by Cloudflare. If the solenoid is not regulating the fluid flow properly, it could cause variability in the torque converter clutch performance as well. A Simpson gearset (which Ill be discussing in great detail in the next few days) provides the same number of ratios from only two gearsets, and a single Ravigneaux gearset can give you four forward speeds and reverse if you have enough clutches. Do you want them slipping when driving? You've now repaired or replaced your torque converter if it exhibited any of the above common torque converter problems. Keep reading to find out these common torque converter problems and how to fix them. Torque converters can be serviced or replaced as a single unit. Once governor pressure was sufficient to overcome the combined spring and throttle valve pressure, oil would be applied to the clutch cylinder, engaging the lockup clutch. If your going over ten your gonna need a new torque converter fairly soon..depends how you drive.. my converter started off slipping at about 13 on the 275 and ended up wearing out pretty quick and it began slipping like 45-50 on the gauge. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Please include what you were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the bottom of this page. All engine power flows through the mechanical clutch directly to the input shaft. Generally, by the time you reach the 60-foot mark on the dragstrip, torque multiplication is effectively eliminated and the turbine and impeller speeds are close to achieving what converter manufacturers call coupling speed. (PayPal.com, PayPal, and all logos related to the PayPal services are either trademarks or registered trademarks of PayPal, Inc. or its licensors. Your car shudders almost as if it's caught the flu and has a temperature. The issues of slippage and heat are the main reasons that street converters should be approached with a serious amount of compromise when it comes to stall speed. The PYPF cookie normally expires in approximately four weeks, the 01A1 cookie in approximately one year. These cookies are necessary for the site's administrative users (who wouldn't even be able to log in without them), but if you are not an administrative user, these cookies aren't normally placed on your device at all unless you somehow access the login area, which is off-limits to non-administrators. I havent studied the Wilson preselectors in any great detail, but if youre curious, the applicable U.S. patents are US1404675 and US1796904. A high-stall converter like a 4,000-rpm unit is not only lazy from a part-throttle-efficiency standpoint, but it also generates much more heat. Clutch material, bearing and bushing pieces, and a shiny metal flake appearance will be an indicator that things are coming apart inside. 2. Studebaker-Packard (the two companies merged in 1954) dropped both of these transmissions after the 1956 model year. The torque converter is so essential to the global car market theres a global torque converter market. (author diagram). The car became basically undriveable. Therefore, a lockup clutch needs to be accompanied by some mechanism to selectively engage or disengage the clutch. However, that did not cure the shuddering problem. Failing Torque Converter Clutch with Slippage - Could be your TCC Solenoid, Re: Failing Torque Converter Clutch with Slippage - Could be your TCC Solenoid, https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.co 733.0.html. There is going to be some slip. Unless you have tune that keeps the converter unlocked, the converter should've locked. In drive at 0 speed TCD should read 1020 rpm and TCA should be Engine RPM - Unlike Ultramatic and many subsequent torque converter automatics, the converter of the DG series was completely inoperative in top gear, so obtaining any additional torque multiplication required a downshift to second gear. For more information about how Akamai may collect, process, and/or use personal data, visit the Akamai "Privacy and Policies" page and Privacy Trust Center. Actual shows 640 rpm in drive with the brake on. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information. In my limited experience, a failing converter in this transmission will start to throw off a lot of black carbon and cause the fluid to rapidly darken. The drive fan moves air across the blades of the driven fan (which is turned off). I always thought it wasn't supposed to go over 10. The mount on the transmission side (under the battery) was severely damaged, the rubber legs inside the bushing were torn through and was allowing a lot of engine movement. The space ahead of the clutch formed a hydraulic cylinder containing an annular steel piston that acted as a pressure plate. I was towing my 5th wheel and the temp went up to 285. The torque converter is made up of five parts: The stator is called the middleman. Unlike a clutch where a friction plate makes physical contact with another plate and ideally the two rotate at exactly the same speed when fully engaged. When the two problems are combined, it could mean your torque converter is failing. This is most noticeable from about 1200-1800 rpm. If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. Unlike a reduction gear, this speed reduction doesnt multiply engine torque. 4. Google, Google Analytics, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC.). Most street torque converters tend to operate in the 3 to 5 percent slippage range, but this can go as high as 8 percent. & Tm. These torque converters allow some slippage but it should not vary much from the desired PCM value. 1. and 2. These cookies expire in about 15 days if the user clicks "Remember Me" when logging in; if not, the cookies normally expire when the user closes their browser (or other user agent), or, failing that, within about two days. A lot of bad things can happen to your car when the torque converter starts failing. AE parameters when looking for tranny slip? I changed to the Spartan V2 a few weeks ago. Although this arrangement sacrificed some of the smoothness that was the main rationale for early automotive torque converter transmissions, it made Ultramatic more efficient than the early Dynaflow, at least at cruising speeds. Transmission Range) start a datalog or have an assistant drive and watch Torque Converter Slip Actual (TCA) and Torque Converter Slip Desired (TCD). That drum is connected via overrunning clutch (fuchsia) to the rear sun gear (purple), which is also attached to the inner race of a second overrunning clutch (also fuchsia). To learn more about the specific cookies used and/or to fine-tune your available choices, click "Privacy Preferences" at the right. Desired is what the PCM is commanding and Actual is how much it is actually slipping measured in RPM. That isnt true of a fluid clutch, whose torus members are free to rotate at different speeds. The good news is, if it is just your torque converter that is having issues since it's a self-contained unit, you may not need to replace or rebuild your whole transmission. The logic of these schematics, which are not to scale and which have been greatly simplified for clarity, is that each color represents a set of components that are integral or otherwise connected so that they always rotate together; clutches, brake bands, planet pinions, and flywheels are shown in black or gray. AAMCO Centers are independently owned and operated. T43 Torque Converter Desired Slip - EFILive The faster it spins, the more force it provides, which causes the fluid to flow faster and harder. Well done and thank you; this must have been an enormous amount of work. For all the administrative and login cookies described here, "xx" will be a cryptographic hash while "UID" will be the administrative user's user ID number in this website's WordPress database. As youll see if you look at the first one, the original iteration had three speeds forward and one reverse, for which it requires four epicyclic gearsets. If you delete or disable these cookies, your existing preferences will be lost and you may not be able to save your privacy settings for this website. 91.234.33.200 Think of it this way, a well built converter, 10" may slip 4-5%, if yours slips 6-7% higher, you are baking the fluid, cooking the band, and compromising the clutches, and giving up mph and ET. This creates the greatest speed difference between the turbine and the impeller and therefore the maximum torque multiplication. Your car will vibrate even when youre not going very fast. The impellers spun by the engine's crankshaft. (WordPress and the WordPress logos are registered trademarks of the WordPress Foundation in the United States and other countries. When coasting, the turbine overruns the impeller, which causes slippage, but relatively little braking effect. By logging into your account, you agree to our. Submitting a comment signifies your acceptance of our Comment Policy please read it first! The payment button in the "Support Ate Up With Motor" box (and similar payment or donation buttons that may appear on portions of the administrative dashboard, which is not normally accessible except to logged-in administrative users) contains embedded content served by PayPal services. The second thing to look for is a lot of slippage between Desired and Actual readings for the TCC in Forscan. Packard achieved that goal by treating the engagement of the lockup clutch like an automatic gear change. of course it could be logging falsely No, that just means its not locking, or the pid isn't reading right. Achieving a true 1:1 speed relationship between the turbine and the impeller is not possible with a non-lockup torque converter since it is still a fluid coupling. A tracking pixel, sometimes known as a web beacon, is a tiny image file that loads from a remote server; it's a type of embedded content (as is the button itself, which loads from the same domain). JavaScript is disabled. For example, in park, it will say Desired Slip 1200, Actual: 730 (guess the engine rpm) As speed increases, the Desired Slip drops (don't remember exact numbers) as well as the actual. However, that clutch was used in a distinctly different way than was Packards. All site content Copyright 2007-var year=new Date(); year=year.getYear(); if (year<1900) year+=1900; document.write(year); FordFlex.net FordFlex.net is in no way affiliated with Ford Motor Company. check trans fluid. I never saw a problem with the converter, it never went over 3 to 4 RPM slippage at WOT with it locked. Im not able to provide repair or maintenance advice, sorry! The one for torque slip desired is 1020 rpm. 2011 Flex Limited AWD EcoBoost - Mediterranean Blue Metallic/Silver Roof. The torque converter of the future will have a carefully tuned control strategy, which takes into account the torque demands of each vehicle. Some iterations of the Studebaker Automatic Drive/Borg-Warner DG started in first gear, but early transmissions started in second unless the driver manually selected Low. If governor pressure dropped below that threshold, the clutch would disengage. I purchased my car 3 weeks ago from a new car dealership.. (At present, this setting does NOT affect the payment or donation buttons that may appear on portions of the site's administrative dashboard, nor does hiding the box affect any cookies that may have already been set). This means that at a 2:1 torque multiplication ratio, an engine that is making 300 lb-ft of torque at a stall speed of 2,500 rpm will actually apply 600 lb-ft of torque to the input shaft of the transmission as the car leaves the starting line. Over 10 RPM is real slip. Thanks for copying the information from my other post here. The knock sensor wire harness connector was loose. (Google, Google Analytics, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC. Torque Converter Slip Measurement / Diagnosis | Ford Explorer - Ford Even though Dyno numbers are just a number, For reference my 2018 Gen3 made 400rwhp/390rwtq stock with 5k miles on a Dynojet,, It hit the speed limiter at 6700. Overdrive ratios drive the torque converter at speeds generally below normal coupling speed, creating increased slippage and heat, which is unacceptable. Gears Magazine - Nag 1/722.6 P0741 TCC Slip ), These third-party cookies may be set in connection with embedded video players for content hosted on the Vimeo video platform, for purposes such as (without limitation) managing video settings, storing video preferences, providing certain functionality (e.g., allowing you to pause a video at a particular point), associating your video viewing and other activity with your Vimeo account (if you have one), showing you advertising, ensuring proper functioning of the service, preventing abuse, and/or compiling user analytics data. (For more information about our discontinuation of Google Analytics tracking on this website, see the "Online Tracking" section of the Privacy Policy. Any slip is bad. Comments may be moderated. The replacement was a cheaper and somewhat simpler Borg-Warner unit which Studebaker-Packard called Flightomatic that deleted the DGs lockup clutch. but my truck has 25k on it and 10k tuned.. so im thinking mines not on the way out and its got 20rpm slip. About Us - This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. Think of a lock TC as the clutches in your tranny. The DG series transmissions obtained their indirect ratios with a compound planetary gearset. Many of the other listed cookies are associated with the Google Analytics service, the Google AdSense advertising service, and/or other Google advertising and measurement products, which are subject to the Google Privacy Policy; see their "How Google uses information from sites or apps that use our services" page, the "Information for Visitors of Sites and Apps Using Google Analytics" section of the Google Analytics "Safeguarding your data" help page, the "Technologies" section of their Google Privacy & Terms site, and the "Our advertising and measurement cookies" section of the Google Business Data Responsibility site (which includes a detailed list of cookies associated with Google advertising and measurement products) for more information. I have yet to read this monumental work in depth. The GM team that designed Hydra-Matic was certainly familiar with the Wilson preselector. Cookie Notice I cant imagine the hours of work which you must have put into understanding these various transmissions, to say nothing of writing up a description that a simpleton like me could (mostly) understand. Off.).) You must be at least 18 to comment. A torque converter clutch (TCC) is an important element of automatic transmissions because it affects fuel economy and driveability. That should make you and your car happy. (author diagram). Submitting a comment signifies your acceptance of our. (We have now DISCONTINUED our use of Google Analytics tracking on this website; see the "Online Tracking" section of the Privacy Policy for more information.) But Ive never heard of anyone going that route. When you experience fluid leaks, you aren't retaining the amount of transmission fluid; the torque converter needs to transfer the power from the engine to the transmission. The usual strategy is to disengage the clutch at idle (or just off idle) and during acceleration and then then engage the clutch for cruising. In first, the low band and one-way clutches held both sun gears, causing the ring gears to drive the planet carrier and output shaft at 43.3% of turbine speed (1 / 2.31). (Google, DoubleClick, YouTube, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC. How exactly are you measuring how much the tc is slipping? In a car with a good suspension and sticky tires, you can use extra rpm to put the engine closer to its torque peak, launching the car even more quickly. The turbine drives the front annulus through the input shaft (medium blue). ), These first-party cookies are used to manage user logins and certain other administrative functions of the WordPress content management system, e.g., post editing. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Third, make sure that your engine is running right because a transmission chuggle can be caused by many things. It's all about creating an overall tuned package that complements the rest of your car. There are several ways to arrange such a clutch, but the common object is to create a mechanical connection between the engine and the transmission input shaft (which otherwise is driven by the fluid clutchs turbine(s)). This is why lifting off the throttle in a car with a fluid coupling or torque converter can feel almost like shifting into neutral. JavaScript is disabled. scheme, but it does contribute. *. Some electrical tape and some plastic wire loom may solve your issue entirely. Once the vehicle is moving at a constant speed, the speed difference between the impeller and turbine diminishes, eventually reaching a minimum point known as coupling stage. Hydraulic slippage is much less desirable at cruising speed. Locking the converter with a scan tool bypasses the tune and verifies everything mechanical is in order. If you are experiencing shuddering, also check your engine mounts. its the mechanically controlled aod. copyright 2023 AAMCO transmissions inc. The first automatic transmissions employed what was called a fluid coupling to connect the crankshaft with the transmission. For a drag-race car, the cost of this additional slippage is worth the price, but for a street car it creates other problems. Most street cars cannot keep the rear tires from spinning if you add too much throttle, and this tends to limit the stall speed. They normally expire in just under one year, but you can delete the cookies in your browser (or other user agent) at any time. I would suggest starting with the transmission upper mount and also a transmission fluid drain and fill. if I'm seeing "desired TC slip" of 1020rpm at all times wouldnt that pretty much guarantee the TC would never lock? This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. The TC is a viscous coupling. I had unlimited tow loaded and he thought maybe it wasn't playing nice with my trans. The torque converter is made up of five parts: 1. This is a very slick trick and can be worth up to 2.5 times engine torque! Heat is the enemy of any automatic transmission and will radically reduce its life span if not mediated by an efficient trans cooler. Now that we have DISCONTINUED our use of Google Analytics tracking on this website, this cookie no longer functions no additional analytics data will be collected, with or without the cookie. Also, as we explained in the sidebar of our article on GMs other early automatic transmissions, torque converters utilize the speed difference between the driving and driven torus members to multiply engine torque. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. if someone would have put in a used ecu ,fron a electric controlled aod. With the advent of overdrive automatic transmissions like the TH200-4R, the TH700-R4/4L60E, the massive 4L80E, the Ford AOD, and all the rest, the new-car companies were striving for improved fuel economy using overdrive. Basically, the fluid exits the center of the turbine and is redirected by the stator back into the impeller. Achieving a true 1:1 speed relationship between the turbine and the impeller is not possible with a non-lockup torque converter since it is still a fluid coupling. There will typically be several such cookies, each beginning with "gdpr" (e.g., gdpr[allowed_cookies], gdpr&5Bprivacy_bar&5D, and gdpr[consent_types]). I was running the KEM 250 and 310 tunes. When starting, the fluid clutchs driving torus (the impeller) may reach a speed of 2,000 rpm or more before the driven torus (the turbine) begins to move at all, a point known as stall. When you coast in gear, the transmission attempts to drive the engine crankshaft, whose inertia causes a braking effect. Remember, you don't experience either symptom unless you have the wrong amount of fluid or the wrong fluid in the transmission. what is the protocol using AE to diagnosis torque slip. I did the trans relearn today with the Spartan 275 tune. If oil pressure to the cylinder was relieved, the pressure plate would no longer be held against the clutch plate, disengaging the clutch and allowing the torque converter to function normally. Impeller Pump The impeller pump receives the transmission fluid once it's delivered. You only monitor it when the converter is locked. Ultramatics lockup clutch was a hydraulically operated wet clutch located within the torque converter housing, between the engine flywheel and the converter turbine. Estimate Converter Slip. Less than 15rpm is normal and more than that will cause shudder. How To Log Transmission And Torque Converter Slip In HPtuners!!!